Author Topic: Over temp  (Read 6630 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline C0R3Y

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: 1990 American Skier, Eagle
Over temp
« on: January 27, 2015, 01:10:52 PM »
1990 American Skier Eagle. 454 Indmar engine.

The following is a response from Beach Marine in Jacksonville, FL. I took the boat in because i could not get it started, and the last time i had it in the water it was running 170 degrees (over temp is 180). I expected it to be a bad thermostat or some sort of blockage in my lines preventing adequate flow.  The following paragraphs explain what occurred and my concerns.

Invoice comments:
12/17/14 Labor 1.52 Hours @ 110.00 167.20
water tested boat and made it about 1/2 way to jtb bridge and belt broke, and brought motor down to idle, temp spiked at 220, until belt broke motor was running 160 degrees on plane, checked temp on risers and stb riser was 180 degrees right after coming off plane, port riser was 115, once motor was idling at about 165 degrees without belt turning circ pump and port manifold was about 130 and stb was about 145, idled boat back watching temp on motor and loaded boat back up


Manager Comments:
This is where we are at: Technician fixed the start issue which was approved on 12-9-14. As per that email explained that once the start issue was fixed we could troubleshoot the overheat issue. Which we did a water test to see about the overheat which was your manifold that is getting hot the estimate of repairs is to pull the manifold and see if it needs to be replaced. Manifolds last about 3-5 yrs some manifolds can last up to 7 yrs depending on how customer flushes their engine. Unfortunately in salt water it usually 3-5 yrs is minimum longevity. The estimate has full replacement of the manifolds and risers to show you what you may be possibly looking at so it’s not a shock when we get them off and they are bad. Once we pull the manifold, inspect, and give results good or bad we still have to put back together which is the remainder of the time plus the parts to fix. Any time manifolds and risers are replaced we also suggest the replacement of the plugs at that time as well. We do this because if your manifolds are leaking internally the spark plugs tend to get wet and rust out. You also had an issue with the serp belt that we need to be pull, measure, and match to be repaired. I would like you to come in to let the tech and our shop foreman explain any unanswered questions you may have before proceeding with any more repairs

Are the manifolds only good for 3-5 years? This boat has only been in salt water once. What damage has/could have been done with the techs running the boat up to 220 degrees (correct me if i am wrong, but i believe that is where the gauge maxes out)? Are these problems that are legitimate and i am to be held responsible for covering. Or is this the problem of Beach Marine and their techs? Any help/opinions are welcome. Just want to ensure i am not getting ripped off here.

-Corey
Keep the wet side down.

Offline backfoot100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
  • Eddie
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: 86 Barefoot Skier
Re: Over temp
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 06:47:44 PM »
I'll take a shot but Ron and/or Dan might be better for this one.

As to the overheat, I think we need more info. 170 is not overheating. 180 is not overheating. It may be getting warm but certainly not overheating. Did it get warm at idle, at speed, just after a long run or after you shut it down and then restarted?

As to the 220 spike, it sounds like the belt that broke must only run the circulation pump? At least that's how I took it. I would think if that's the case, it may spike momentarily if the boat was on plane when the belt broke and then brought down to an idle which sounds like what happened. I would think the engine should get enough water flow from the RWP to keep it reasonably cool as was stated at an idle.
If that is truly the case I have a hard time believing a momentary spike in the temp would hurt it as long as came back down right away at idle, but I could certainly be wrong.

As to the manifolds in salt water. Yes, they don't last long then. I would say that 3-5 years would be about correct. However if it has truly only been in salt once, than no way they should be bad. We don't have any history of the boat though unless you can shed some light on that.
I would question why the manifolds need replacing. They measured the port manifold at 130 and the stbd manifold at 145 with the engine reading 165. If they aren't leaking and you don't have water in the oil, I wouldn't touch the manifolds yet.
I would verify the impeller is good, replace the belt and verify what temp thermostat is in there and if it's good. Once we know when it starts getting warm as I asked above, we can better determine where to start looking for an issue.
As a general rule, overheat at idle  and cooling off at speed is normally a slight leak on the intake side of the RWP or any of those associated hose connections, cooler or strainer.
Running cool at idle and then getting hot at speed is normally an obstruction or questionable impeller.
Temp creeping up to 170 at speed or a during a hard run if you have a 160 thermostat is perfectly normal.
Shutting off a warm engine and restarting after a few minutes the temp could be well over 180, but it should back down right away. Again, this is normal.

Some more info would certainly help.
 
When people run down to the lake to see what is making that noise, you've succeeded.

Offline Midskier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
  • The Busted Knuckle Garage is always open :)
    • Midwest American Skier Boats Parts and Service
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: the ONLY '86 American Skier Volante Barefoot Skier
Re: Over temp
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 09:22:38 AM »
Corey - sounds to me like Eddie nailed it with the info given
salt water damage / erosion / corrosion is foreign to me - not much salt water in the Midwest :) 

a healthy raw water pump (thing on the front of the crankshaft that pull water from the lake and pushes it to the engine)
should be able to keep things cool enough to get back to the dock - the belt drives the alternator and circulation pump (circ pump is engine mounted and circulates water / coolant through out the engine)

"As a general rule, overheat at idle  and cooling off at speed is normally a slight leak on the intake side of the RWP or any of those associated hose connections, cooler or strainer.
Running cool at idle and then getting hot at speed is normally an obstruction or questionable impeller.
Temp creeping up to 170 at speed or a during a hard run if you have a 160 thermostat is perfectly normal.
Shutting off a warm engine and restarting after a few minutes the temp could be well over 180, but it should back down right away. Again, this is normal."

I agree
Dan T
Midwest American Skier Boats Parts and Service
**219.365.1466**
www.MidwestAmericanSkier.com
midskier@hotmail.com
Buy Barefoot International / Fly High Products at:
www.FootnGear.com  
AWSA Level 1 Certified Water Ski Instructor

Offline C0R3Y

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: 1990 American Skier, Eagle
Re: Over temp
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 04:33:08 PM »
Eddie:  "As to the overheat, I think we need more info. 170 is not overheating. 180 is not overheating. It may be getting warm but certainly not overheating. Did it get warm at idle, at speed, just after a long run or after you shut it down and then restarted? "
You are right. I got 170 degrees from my owners manual. But now as i go back through it, i do not see it anywhere. I must be losing/lost my mind. My engine runs at 170 solid at idle. On plane, or under throttle on the fake-a-lake, it is 160-165. During a long run I am 170 solid, and after a restart (as I recall) it is 180ish, but the temp immediately decreases.

The belt does run the circ pump. After it broke the techs said they saw the gauge jump to 220, and they began to spin it by hand to keep circulation throughout the engine. My gauge does max out at 220, so who knows how hot it actually got. Nevertheless all seems to be normal. I have replaced the belt, and did an optest on the trailer (video link below). I do not think i have the belt tension set properly, but will play with that more before i drop it in the water again. Any advice here is welcome.

History on the boat: I bought it northeast of Atlanta, GA on lake Lanier. The seller told me that he bought it from his boss whom had it in the same area it's whole life. I had it in Augusta, GA for about a year before I relocated it to Jacksonville, FL at the beginning of 2014. I use it on the St. Johns River and ICW. To my knowledge this is the only time it has tasted saltwater. Manifolds are not leaking, there is not water in my oil, and my impeller is brand new every year and is still solid (impeller 09-812B). Unfortunately i am not sure how to verify what thermostat is installed. Probably very simple, i just have never done this before. RWP and connections are solid, no strainer is installed.

Dan:  Looks like someone beat you to the punch, but thank you for the confirmation! I don't know why the RWP didn't provide enough cooling water when my belt snapped, but it definitely did not. Can't blame you for not hitting the salt. It's more of a nightmare than anything. I hear it helps with the wood rot in the stringers by actually pickling the wood. But that may be some drunkin' BS i have heard from some ol' timers. But either way, the best beaches are where the saltwater sloshes up, so I'll take all the issue it can dish up for that.

-Corey

http://youtu.be/rmoJPQ-9gtw

http://youtu.be/9XB46O7lUGc



 
Keep the wet side down.

Offline RonT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
    • RonTanis
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: American Skier/Eagle V-25/2001
Re: Over temp
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2015, 05:24:10 AM »
Given the info as stated above, in my shop I would remove raw water hoses, inspect, clear trans cooler, remove t-stat cover, inspect, remove debris, blow through hoses into exh. manifolds to check for obstructions, verify impeller, run on bucket to observe water consumption, add a seawater strainer.
Last week in my shop I pulled the hose off a trans cooler & found impeller blades lodged inside, and had been running like that!
The first noticeable overheat damage is smell of burning rubber from the exhaust hoses, they don't like 1500 deg. fire , next is fiberglass (resin) mufflers, every time I pull exhaust hoses off fiberglass mufflers you can tell if the engine ever ran hot as the inlets of the pipe are cracked & collapsed. All of this happens in the first minute after water stops flowing into the exhaust at cruise rpms! If continued to operate is when head/block hard parts begin to fail. 

Offline backfoot100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
  • Eddie
  • Boat Make/Model/Year: 86 Barefoot Skier
Re: Over temp
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 08:01:09 AM »
Absolutely agree with Ron. If you have no idea if an impeller ever fragged you need to check the thermostat to see if any old impeller blades are lodged up there someplace. That's normally where they end up if they come apart on you. That's how you verify the thermostat as suggested earlier. The thermostat housing has to be removed to allow access to the thermostat. Remove thermostat or better yet just replace it at that point with one of known temp. Especially if it's being used in salt. A new gasket with a bit of Permatex gasket sealer and bolt it back on.

Flushing with fresh water after salt use is critical for longevity but the exhaust manifolds and risers are still good 3-5 years as stated before you might have issues. Better to be safe than sorry.
When people run down to the lake to see what is making that noise, you've succeeded.